In this episode, I talk to Dusty Miller at British Fencing and together we explore why teams work at the speed of trust, the importance of creating a culture of continuous learning, and how leaders can build teams that thrive under pressure.

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Episode 17: Values should never gather dust in a drawer

Guest: Dusty Miller of British Fencing

Sherry Bevan: Hello and welcome to Team Talk. Today, my guest is Dusty Miller.

Dusty is Head of Performance and Performance Coaching at British Fencing. He has spent more than 35 years shaping high-performing teams across the military, sport and business. Following a distinguished career in the Royal Navy, he joined England Rugby ahead of the 2015 Rugby World Cup, where he introduced an innovative theming approach that strengthened the team’s identity and connection to the heritage of English rugby.

Today, as Head of Performance at British Fencing, he leads the performance strategy and multidisciplinary support systems that support world-class results on the international stage.

Dusty, a very warm welcome.

Dusty Miller: Thank you very much. It’s a pleasure to be here.

I’m already fascinated by your career. You started in the Navy, then moved into rugby, and now you’re at British Fencing. Tell us a little more about your background and how you came to be in your current role.

I left school at the ripe old age of 16 and went straight into the Royal Navy. I went through a very rigorous selection process—he says with his tongue firmly in his cheek—to join the Submarine Service.

What fascinated me was that I immediately stepped into an incredibly complex machine that relied entirely on people. At the very centre of it was the importance of learning. It didn’t matter how long you’d served on that submarine; everyone was expected to understand how the whole machine worked and how every part fitted together.

That really introduced me to what would become my career over the next 27 years, working across different disciplines but predominantly in human performance.

I left the Royal Navy in 2013 and joined England Rugby, working within the Game Development department. I was fortunate to support some culture work with the senior men’s team in the lead-up to the home Rugby World Cup in 2015.

We talked about connecting the team to the nation through the story of Lieutenant Commander Arthur Harrison, who was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross. He had also, coincidentally, played for England, so he became a powerful connection between the team and its heritage.

After that, I joined the UK Sports Institute, working across Olympic and Paralympic sports. I supported CEOs, Performance Directors and Heads of Performance, helping them think about how they planned for performance and how they reviewed those plans. That eventually led me to British Fencing, where I am today.

That’s quite a journey. I’m not sure where to dive in first!

I’d like to come back to something you said about learning because it’s fundamental to my own philosophy. There’s never a point where we stop learning; there’s always something new to discover. How has that focus on learning supported you as a leader throughout your career?

I think learning is incredibly important, particularly for leaders. It’s about helping the people we work alongside, for and with.

Leaders need to role model learning behaviours. We don’t have to have all the answers, but we do need the curiosity to understand where the answers might lie.

It’s also about asking, “How do we help others learn?” In high-performance sport, an increasingly important question is, “How do we learn at pace?” That’s critical, because we also need to connect those learnings together in order to maximise the opportunity for performance.

Learning at pace is a really interesting idea. In many sports, technology is advancing so quickly that the ability to learn quickly becomes a real competitive advantage.

I often say that coaching is about curiosity. I encourage everyone around me to develop what I call their “curiosity muscle” and keep exercising it. Technology is evolving at an incredible pace. Within the high-performance system, we’re currently exploring how AI can contribute—not just to individual or team performance, but to the performance of the entire system, perhaps even globally.

Of course, we have to learn from the technology itself, but when I talk about learning at pace, I’m really talking about behaviour. How do we keep flexing that curiosity muscle so we can maximise what we’re learning from today’s experiences and use those insights to shape the future?

That makes perfect sense.

You’ve worked across several sports, particularly rugby and now British Fencing. What have you found to be common across those environments when it comes to leadership?

Passion, and belief.

Belief not only in the athletes who are performing, but also in the workforce that supports them.

In every sport I’ve worked in, there’s been a real sense of everyone coming together around a guiding star. While my heart probably still belongs to rugby union because it’s such a team sport, there are things I absolutely love about fencing.

People don’t necessarily see fencing as a team sport, yet everyone comes together around the performance of each athlete. Whether they’re competing individually, in teams, across the three weapons, or within the Paralympic programme, there is a real sense of collective purpose behind every performance.

I think that’s fascinating. On the rugby pitch, the players are obviously competing as one unit. In fencing they’re competing as individuals, yet you’re still seeing them as one team.

Often it’s the people behind the athlete who are absolutely crucial to that individual’s success, whether they’re on the piste or on the pitch. It’s so important that the team around the athlete works well together.

You’re absolutely right. Teams, and human beings working together, operate at the speed of trust. The ability to build trust quickly and the ability to learn quickly are both incredibly important.

When trust is broken, we lose it very, very quickly. We lose performance very quickly, and we lose learning very quickly too.

There’s something about trust, teams and teaming that makes performance—not just performance outcomes, but human performance—vitally important.

Trust is such an interesting one. It’s one of those essential ingredients for any high-performing team. What do you think are the key things that help build trust in the first place?

I believe trust is something we choose to give freely. I don’t subscribe to the idea that trust has to be earned.

For me, it’s about giving trust and role modelling the behaviours you want to see in the people around you.

Alongside that come the skills that underpin trust and effective teaming. The ability to really listen—not just with your ears, but with your eyes too, because so much communication is non-verbal. It’s about having clarity of purpose, and creating an environment where people have the confidence to speak up.

People will speak up when they understand that the intention behind the conversation is a good one—that it’s there to help everyone contribute and improve. That doesn’t mean we avoid disagreement. Healthy challenge is often a real contributor to performance.

Positive intention is so important, isn’t it?

As a leader, you might make the wrong decision or communicate something imperfectly. You might not have considered every factor. But if people believe you’ve acted with good intentions, they’re much more likely to be understanding, forgiving and supportive than if exactly the same action came from poor intentions.

Absolutely. There’s also something about having clarity around roles and responsibilities.

As the leader of a team, I have responsibilities to the team and the people around me, but I also have responsibilities to the organisation. Sometimes those responsibilities mean I have to make a decision that the team wouldn’t necessarily choose.

That takes us back to intention. If people understand why you’re making that decision, and they know there are factors you can share and others you can’t, in my experience they’ll come with you because they recognise that your intentions are good.

That’s something I’ve seen with leaders too. Sometimes there are decisions or pieces of information you simply can’t share because they’re confidential.

But if you’re honest and say, “There are other factors involved that I can’t discuss yet,” or, “I can’t share that information at the moment,” it makes such a difference. People understand that you’re not hiding things for the sake of it—you’re protecting information for the right reasons.

Exactly. It’s about being transparent about your intention.

In my executive coaching work, I spend a lot of time helping clients understand that our conversations are confidential. The same principle applies within teams. If I have to withhold information, it’s because it’s confidential, and being clear about that matters.

The other side of the coin is radical transparency. The more transparent you are with your communication day to day, the less jarring it is when there are occasions where you genuinely can’t share everything.

People will always be curious—they’ll always want to know more—but if you’ve built a reputation for openness, they’re much more likely to accept that there are times when confidentiality has to come first.

You talked earlier about joining the Submarine Service and immediately discovering how important learning was.

I’m curious—what other lessons from your time in the Royal Navy have stayed with you and shaped the way you lead today?

The experience of living cheek by jowl with other people.

At that time, the Submarine Service was all male. I was living alongside around 100 people, working a six-hours-on, six-hours-off watch system, sometimes for as long as 114 days underwater.

You learn how to tolerate people, coach them, nurture them, lead them and guide them. Many of the leadership behaviours I went on to develop were rooted in those very first experiences.

More than anything, it made me comfortable with the idea of personal leadership—the bit that makes you put your feet on the floor each morning and say, “This is what I’m going to do today.”

In many ways, that’s what the Submarine Service gave me.

Do you think that would have been different if you’d served on surface ships rather than submarines?

I think it would have been different, although it’s difficult to say exactly how.

After seven or eight years I moved into the surface fleet in a completely different role, and one thing I noticed immediately was that understanding the whole machine wasn’t nearly as important.

On a surface ship, people tended to become experts in their own area or specialism. On a submarine, you had to become an expert submariner first. You needed to understand every part of that submarine and how it all worked together.

So yes, it was different. I experienced that difference firsthand, even if it’s hard to put into words exactly what changed.

That’s really interesting. I have no experience of submarines, but I imagine that because you’re underwater, if something goes wrong everyone has to know how to deal with it. I find that fascinating.

Coming back to British Fencing, we’ve already talked about the fact that athletes are primarily competing as individuals rather than as a team. How do you create a sense of team when people are representing Great Britain or competing at something like the Olympic Games?

That’s one of the real tensions in fencing.

There are team events, but the primary focus is on individual performance. A typical competition starts with the individual event—pool rounds followed by knockout stages—and then the team competition takes place afterwards.

More broadly, it’s a tension that many Olympic and Paralympic sports wrestle with. Are we British Fencing as the National Governing Body, or are we Team GB?

For a developing sport like fencing, athletes are individuals first. They’re part of British Fencing, but they’re not necessarily part of Team GB until they’ve qualified. We haven’t had an Olympic qualifier since Marcus Mepstead competed in Tokyo, for example.

So there’s an interesting transition. Athletes are representing themselves and British Fencing, but once they qualify, they very quickly become part of Team GB or ParalympicsGB.

That’s interesting because, when you watch fencing on television, you only ever really see the individual athlete on the piste. I can imagine that creates quite a different dynamic, particularly as it’s a relatively small sport.

It is. We have around 11,000 members.

Where do we currently stand internationally?

We compete across three weapons: épée, foil and sabre.

At the moment, if you judge purely on rankings and results, foil is our strongest weapon. Épée and sabre are performing at a similar level.

Our performance strategy is focused on helping our foil programme continue to develop. We’re hoping Jamie Cook can qualify for Los Angeles 2028 and, looking further ahead, challenge for the podium in Brisbane in 2032. At the same time, we’re continuing to build the systems and support around épée and sabre so all three programmes continue to grow together.

How likely is it that Jamie will qualify for Los Angeles?

He’s currently ranked 31st in the world and has only just moved into the senior ranks, so this is his first senior season. His performances have been very much in line with expectations.

Over the next couple of years, we’re hopeful that the investment from UK Sport and National Lottery funding will allow him to focus fully on training rather than needing to work. It also gives him access to world-class sports science and medical support through the Scottish Institute of Sport and the UK Sports Institute.

His target is to qualify for Los Angeles, gain Olympic experience, and continue developing towards future Games.

I’ve heard similar things from other leaders in elite sport. National Lottery funding doesn’t just improve physical preparation—it also has a huge impact on athletes’ mental wellbeing because they can focus on competing rather than worrying about earning a living.

Well, good luck for Los Angeles.

Coming back to leadership, your expertise lies in building cohesive teams and turning ambitious goals into sustainable success. What do you lean on most to make that happen?

Empowerment and succession.

The way I approach leadership is that I’m always looking at who comes next. Not because I’m planning to leave tomorrow, but because success isn’t sustainable unless you develop the people around you.

When I arrived at British Fencing, one of my first priorities was recruiting high-quality people with the right experience from across the sports sector. The aim was to build a system that could eventually function without relying on me.

In many ways, that’s exactly how the military works. Every leader is expected to develop the people around them because, in two or three years’ time, they’ll move on and someone else will step into that role.

You’re constantly helping people grow, empowering them and preparing them for the next opportunity. What I’d now call succession planning was simply how leadership worked.

That’s a really interesting perspective. Does that mean you didn’t fully understand why it was happening at the time, or you simply didn’t recognise that it was succession planning?

I think when you’re inside an organisation like the military, you’re simply immersed in it.

It’s a highly competitive, performance-focused environment where everyone is striving to be their best. Promotion is naturally part of that journey, but it’s also linked to time. Most people spend around 22 years in service before moving on. Some stay longer—I did—but that’s broadly how the system works.

There’s a place for everyone. You can be highly ambitious, less ambitious, happy to cruise or determined to progress quickly. All of those people are needed.

But the organisation is always trying to improve. It wants every ship to be the best it can possibly be, and that only happens if people keep learning, keep growing and keep performing at their very best.

Bringing that idea of succession planning into your current role, is it something you continue to focus on and prioritise?

I certainly focus on it. Whether I prioritise it above everything else is a good question.

Our people are our greatest asset, so creating an environment where they feel empowered and remain curious to learn is hugely important to me.

I had a conversation with Sarah this morning where we were solving a problem together. I could have solved it myself, but by working through it together she was checking and challenging my thinking. I said to her, “You’ve got real skin in the game here. I need you to become just as knowledgeable about this as I am.”

That way, performance doesn’t depend on a single point of failure. I’ve seen organisations where one person held all the knowledge, and when they left it genuinely damaged the sport.

That’s really interesting. It sounds as though the military—and particularly the Submarine Service—was an incredible learning ground.

Are there any aspects of military leadership that you’ve tried to bring into sport that simply don’t work because, ultimately, sport isn’t the military?

That’s a good question.

I don’t think there’s anything from the military that simply doesn’t work. What doesn’t always translate is the expectation of how people will respond.

There’s a perception that military leadership is all about barking orders. Of course it’s hierarchical, and there are times when someone says, “This is what we’re doing,” because a decision has to be made.

But I’ve seen exactly the same thing in high-performance sport and in plenty of organisations, whether that’s front office or back office.

Where people who’ve served in the military sometimes struggle is assuming everyone shares the same sense of purpose and intention.

In the military, the objective is usually very clear. We’re all heading in the same direction. If I work a 12-hour day and you work a three-hour day, it’s because today you can only give three hours.

Outside the military, not everyone is always pulling in the same direction. Sometimes that’s because they don’t believe in the objective. Sometimes it’s because they don’t understand it.

That brings us back to leadership, radical transparency and helping people understand the objective, where they fit into it, what their contribution is, and how they can help us move towards it more effectively.

I think that clarity is so important.

I’ve worked with organisations where you ask the CIO what the vision is, and then you ask members of the team the same question and everyone gives a different answer. That’s often a clue as to why things aren’t working as expected.

Having clarity around the goal and the intention makes such a difference.

I don’t know whether it’s obvious, but I can only speak from my own experience.

I joined the Royal Navy when I was 16 and I’ve been in service to this country ever since.

At the heart of that is service to others. I think many people who serve develop that mindset. It’s no surprise to me that I can usually recognise quite quickly who has a military background—not because of a nickname like “Dusty”, which the Navy gave me—but because of the way they behave, their selflessness, and their desire to contribute to the community around them.

For many people, it’s more than a job. It’s a calling.

Many people join the military at a young age, while they’re still developing as individuals. I imagine that shapes your values for life—or perhaps strengthens the values you already have.

Exactly. Your values and beliefs continue to evolve, but there is also an element of, “This is simply who you are.”

You’re shaped by your environment. There’s that saying, “It takes a village to raise a child.” In many ways, the military is that village.

Everyone contributes to your learning and development throughout your career, regardless of how senior you become. You’re continually being nurtured and supported by the people around you.

There’s a lot organisations can learn from that. Hierarchy only really works when everyone understands the purpose behind it and shares that sense of service. Without a clear goal, hierarchy alone doesn’t achieve very much.

No. It’s rare to find an organisation that doesn’t have values, a mission statement or a vision. The problem is that they often end up sitting in a drawer rather than being lived every day.

Exactly.

The worst place for your values is gathering dust in a drawer.

They have to be lived, breathed and role modelled by the leadership. People also need to understand how their own role contributes to that bigger purpose.

Without that, people become disengaged and lose their sense of belonging.

Owen Eastwood writes brilliantly about belonging, and I think there’s something incredibly powerful in that idea.

Absolutely.

As we come to a close, what’s your top piece of advice for someone stepping into their first leadership role in sport?

Pay attention to the people around you, and never lose sight of care.

Care for others because, when your own leadership crisis comes—and it will—you’ll want those people to care for you.

Every leader eventually faces a moment where they have to make a difficult decision. That’s part of leadership.

I love that.

Care for others because one day you’ll need them during your own leadership crisis.

We’re all going to experience one at some point. That’s why it’s called a crisis—you never see it coming.

Before we finish, I ask every guest the same question. What’s been your personal favourite sporting moment?

July 1999.

The Royal Tournament was coming to an end, and I was part of the Royal Navy Field Gun Competition representing Devonport.

We recorded the fastest time ever—2 minutes, 40.42 seconds. That record will never be beaten because the competition ended after that year.

To have been one of the 18 people in that crew was the highlight of my sporting life. It was probably the closest I ever came to being a professional athlete.

Wow, congratulations! I used to love watching the Field Gun competition. It was incredible to see the teamwork—everyone knew exactly what their role was and what needed to happen next.

Congratulations. I don’t think anyone else has given me that sporting moment before.

Well, there are only 18 people who hold that record, so it’s fairly unlikely you’ll interview another one!

Exactly!

Thank you so much for your time today, Dusty. If people would like to connect with you or find out more about British Fencing, where should they go? I’ll include the links in the show notes.

British Fencing is at britishfencing.com.

Personally, you’ll find me on LinkedIn, so please do connect if you’d like to continue the conversation.

And if anyone wants to watch that Field Gun world record, it’s on YouTube. Just search for “Devonport Field Gun 1999.”

I’m definitely going to watch that this afternoon!

Thank you so much for your time. I’ve learned a huge amount about leadership today. There are so many memorable quotes from this conversation that I know I’ll come back to again and again.

I especially loved what you said about lifelong learning and the curiosity muscle. It’s not just about learning—it’s about staying curious. Asking, “Why has someone done that?” “Why are they behaving that way?” or “What else could we do?”

Thank you again. I’ve really appreciated the conversation.

Thanks, Sherry. I’ve really enjoyed it too. Thank you for having me.

About Dusty Miller

Dusty Miller has spent more than 35 years shaping high-performance teams across military, sport and business environments.

Following a distinguished Royal Navy career, he joined England Rugby ahead of the 2015 Rugby World Cup, where he introduced an innovative “theming” approach that strengthened team identity and connection to the heritage of English Rugby.

Today, as Head of Performance (Olympic) at British Fencing, he leads performance strategy and multidisciplinary support systems to deliver world-class results on the international stage.

Known for his warm, engaging and thought-provoking style, Dusty quickly builds trust through humour, empathy and insightful challenge.

His expertise lies in creating cohesive teams, shaping high-performance cultures and turning ambitious goals into sustainable success.

Driven by a passion for unlocking potential, Dusty helps individuals and organisations move from good to great through lasting, meaningful change.

Important links

• British Fencing website
• Dusty Miller on LinkedIn
• The Royal Navy Field Gun competition world record set by Devonport on YouTube

About your host Sherry Bevan

Sherry Bevan helps teams in transition perform at their best – without the fluff. A former Global Head of IT Service in an international law firm, she now works across technology, professional services and the charity sector.

Through her Team Performance Reset, Sherry supports new and changing teams to build trust, strengthen collaboration and set the foundations for high performance.

A former grassroots cyclist and still a runner, Sherry is fascinated by what sport can teach us about teamwork, leadership and sustainable performance – and it’s these ideas she explores with leaders and experts on Team Talk.

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